Beverley Daniels Episode #18 Part 2: Big Weave

         Beverley Daniels Part 2 goes deeper into discussing how she has explored and developed her technique as a multi-disciplinary artist. In the last decade she has been focusing on dissecting and combining found objects. Allowing them to share the space almost that can sometimes result in an argument, they are separated until they can sit comfortably together.

         This is the area that Daniels loves to be involved in. It's the energy, the movement, the discussion between the mediums, how they relate, how they speak to each other to say what cannot be said. It becomes more than what it appears, while at the same time remaining quiet. Using the ecological grief as a tool to be something more for the observer.

         Beverley has had a number of exhibitions that explore this dynamic. Using upcycled materials that become intrinsically more than they ever would have when left at the curb. The flyers, ads, and banners, that arrive unbidden at our door almost daily we unthinkingly put in our trash; Beverley uses to weave into contemporary designs that will surprise you. 

Podcast Credits:

Beverley Daniels/Carolyn Botelho

Audio Links from: Adobe Podcast
Podcast by Carolyn Botelho

Transcript

(0:08) So hi, Beverly Daniels. (0:10) Hi, I'm so glad to be here talking to you. (0:13) How are you? (0:15) I am so happy to have you on the show.

(0:18) This is an exciting moment. (0:21) We are standing in your GRIDS art exhibition (0:24) at Propeller Art Gallery in downtown Toronto. (0:28) You have been making art for a number of years.

(0:32) You have admitted to pivoting in the last few years (0:35) to focus on GRIDS (0:38) and how they are all consuming in our city streets, (0:43) infrastructure and map systems. (0:47) I like to ask all artists, (0:50) what led them to decide on this career path? (0:53) Was it loving what you can make with your hands, (0:57) your emotional insights, (0:59) the feel of the mediums or something else? (1:03) I guess an answer to that, (1:06) I would say that I kept trying not to do art (1:11) because it scared me (1:13) and it made me miserable not to do it. (1:16) So I just gave in and did it.

(1:18) And now I can't stop. (1:22) So that's how, I guess a lot of people would say (1:26) it chose them rather than they choosing it. (1:31) Yeah.

(1:32) Yeah. (1:35) That's a good answer. (1:41) Speaking of mediums, (1:43) you are a multidisciplinary artist.

(1:46) What would you say has been your most challenging (1:49) or rewarding choice of mediums (1:52) since you have been working with multimedia? (1:56) Well, plastic fusing is pretty damn challenging. (2:01) It continues to challenge me quite a bit. (2:04) It's when you take plastic bags that have lettering on them (2:09) and you use the lettering as the glue (2:12) and you use a low temperature iron (2:15) to iron the plastic bags together (2:18) and get some great effect.

(2:21) I get all excited about it. (2:23) But the problem is that it's very shiny at the end, (2:27) like obnoxiously shiny. (2:29) And I don't know what to do about that.

(2:31) I'm still working on it. (2:33) So that's one of the, a very, very challenging one. (2:38) Also, I guess at one point (2:43) I was liberating old cassette tapes from their cassettes.

(2:49) And that was a challenge for me (2:53) and for my partner who said, (2:55) oh, maybe we should get you a studio. (3:00) So we had these, well, videotapes and audiotapes (3:05) just all over the place and me trying to do things. (3:07) So it was probably very, very toxic.

(3:09) Now I'm thinking about it. (3:09) That's what I was thinking, the first one (3:11) you were talking about, I was like, (3:12) that's gotta be toxic. (3:13) It was a plastic.

(3:13) It was gotta be toxic. (3:17) I'm okay so far. (3:21) So those have been two big challenges.

(3:24) It's all challenging anyway, (3:27) because it's about coping with it. (3:28) It's about composition and making elements in the piece (3:33) talk nicely to each other, but not too nicely. (3:36) You don't want them to be too peaceful together.

(3:39) That's really what it comes down to. (3:41) So it's like conflict between the elements (3:45) that go into the piece. (3:47) Yeah, yeah.

(3:48) And I don't know how it's gonna end. (3:51) It's like an argument. (3:52) It could be an argument.

(3:53) Some of them turn out to be arguments (3:55) and then you just put them away for a while and go back. (3:59) It's like a discussion there. (4:01) Yeah.

(4:01) Working out. (4:02) Discussion, that's right. (4:04) Yeah.

(4:07) How do you start your creative process? (4:10) Do you begin with an idea or an image (4:13) or do you let the mediums dictate how you work? (4:17) And with this, I mean, do the mediums lead your hands (4:20) while you explore what they are saying to you? (4:23) Ah, nice question. (4:26) I do think that a lot of what I do is medium driven (4:30) because I will see a piece of cardboard (4:36) that has an interesting edge to it. (4:38) And I'll think, okay, looks like architecture.

(4:42) And then I start messing with it and putting water on it (4:45) and peeling it apart like corrugated cardboard (4:48) and getting all these repetitions of the same edge (4:52) and making like, it's the medium. (4:55) It's that piece of cardboard (4:56) that got me started on that piece. (4:59) And then I just keep going.

(5:01) So I guess really that's it. (5:03) And because of that, it doesn't start (5:05) when you stand in front of your work table or your easel. (5:08) It's not when you're walking down the street (5:11) and you see something that someone has put (5:13) at the end of their driveway or they're at the curb (5:16) and they're giving it away and it's in good condition (5:19) and it's a banner, a vinyl banner.

(5:21) It's got great color and they don't want to throw it out. (5:25) And you can think of something you can do with it. (5:27) So it's all that process.

(5:29) Go for a walk, it's part of art. (5:33) Go sort through the recycling that becomes part of art. (5:37) It just doesn't go away.

(5:39) That sounds awesome. (5:41) How you're finding the work that speaks to you (5:46) that you then transform into what I'm seeing around me. (5:52) That's the plan.

(5:55) That's the plan. (5:56) How often do you go out to find this kind of search for? (6:00) Well, I don't even go out to search. (6:01) They find me.

(6:03) I'm walking to the streetcar and I see stuff. (6:06) So it's really, it's effortless in that way. (6:08) You know? (6:08) Oh, so that's good.

(6:09) Yeah, or you get those real estate postcards in the mail (6:14) and you go, wait a second, I could do something with that. (6:17) Or a newspaper or a flyer, anything, you know? (6:22) There's so much color and shape around (6:24) that just comes to you. (6:26) You don't have to go looking.

(6:28) Oh yeah, that's true. (6:28) All the stuff. (6:31) Just the free advertising that gets put in your mailbox, (6:34) right? (6:34) Exactly, enough for it.

(6:35) But now you can use it. (6:39) What is the most bizarre medium (6:41) you have used in your paintings? (6:43) Does anyone know about it? (6:46) Or is this part of a secret I am revealing? (6:50) Well, I think I kind of revealed the most bizarre one, (6:53) which was the videotape and audio tape. (6:57) Are there any of those? (6:58) I haven't used those yet.

(7:01) In fact, I think I put those away (7:03) and tried to forget about them. (7:04) But sometimes I see them and I think, (7:06) I still couldn't use these. (7:08) But I guess if I'm using, (7:11) I use old film, you know, from still cameras.

(7:16) And those are nice because they have (7:18) the rows of square perforations that go into the sprockets. (7:23) And they are very urban looking to me. (7:27) And they're very emphatic because they're very dark.

(7:31) Milk cartons, maybe they're kind of odd. (7:35) And I was strapping, you know, (7:38) when you get a cardboard box full of something to your door (7:43) and it's got strapping on it. (7:46) Oh, the tape? (7:46) Yeah, yeah.

(7:48) Or zip ties, those are very useful. (7:51) One time I found a red zip tie on the sidewalk. (7:54) I was so happy.

(7:58) And I'd just like to say to the listeners (8:00) that Beverly is looking around at her artwork, (8:03) I guess figuring out what's in there. (8:06) What's really strange in there? (8:08) Yeah, like you're just looking like, (8:10) oh, I know there's something in here that, (8:12) what did I use exactly that's going to stand out (8:15) in your practice kind of things? (8:18) Yeah, like things that go technologically go out of date, (8:23) like earphones with the cords. (8:26) And some of them are really nice color.

(8:28) And those are great to put in a weave or something. (8:32) You could make baskets out of those, you know? (8:34) You could do a lot with that stuff. (8:39) When I was chatting with you at your opening, (8:42) I guess it was last Saturday.

(8:45) We discussed how you were a teacher earlier in your career. (8:49) Can you share with our audience (8:51) how you feel this influenced your creativity or vice versa? (8:55) Oh, yeah. (8:56) Teaching, you know, if you can't use your creativity, (9:02) if you can't think on your feet, you're going to die.

(9:05) So you have to learn. (9:07) And it just ripped open my creativity. (9:09) Like I never had that level of creativity before, (9:14) even though I was doing art.

(9:15) I did a lot of drawing and a lot of drawing. (9:18) And I felt like I couldn't bust out of something, (9:22) but I couldn't even figure out what it was (9:24) I was trying to bust out of. (9:26) And then teaching came along and, (9:29) because I taught French and you're not supposed to, (9:31) you've got a class of kids who don't have any French.

(9:34) Maybe they can count to 10, that's it. (9:35) And you're not supposed to speak to them in English. (9:38) So how do you teach them entirely in French? (9:42) And that was such a challenge (9:44) that it woke up my creative brain.

(9:47) It's a problem solving. (9:49) And it just kept rolling and it kept going. (9:54) It goes into my art also.

(9:57) Well, yeah, I just presumed you taught art, (9:59) but you taught French. (10:00) I taught French, yeah. (10:02) Sometimes I taught art too.

(10:04) I wasn't a very good art teacher. (10:06) I realized because I would think, (10:09) I didn't realize the leaps I was making in my thinking (10:12) that you have to take it step by step. (10:15) And I wouldn't even know there were steps (10:17) and the kids would try to do what I asked them to do.

(10:20) And I'd think, oh no, no, not bad. (10:25) So I had to go back and teach them more methodically, (10:28) I guess, and be methodical in teaching. (10:36) Being from Toronto, Canada, (10:38) how have you seen that this geographical location growing up (10:42) has impacted your creative practice? (10:45) Well, living in the city, it's all about the grid pattern.

(10:50) Cities, especially North American cities, particularly. (10:53) And Toronto, Toronto was laid down by Simcoe (10:57) in that strict street grid. (11:00) And the lots of land were apportioned to the people he knew (11:04) or who were thought worthy.

(11:06) So it was all very gridded and it continues to be. (11:11) And I actually quite like that (11:13) because it sounds severe and it can be, (11:17) but when an architect or architects as a whole, (11:25) as a number, when they're restricted to a grid (11:31) because that's what the windows have to be like, (11:34) there's so much you can find within that constraint. (11:38) It's quite amazing to see the variety.

(11:41) Whereas if you see five or 10 buildings all made the same, (11:46) that's kind of horrifying. (11:49) But there's variation and so it's very entertaining. (11:55) And just like all the print that you see (11:58) when you're walking down the street in a big city, (11:59) there's so much print and color (12:03) trying to get your attention.

(12:05) And I think that really affects me, you know, (12:07) walking in a city. (12:08) I think walking in a city does that to your brain. (12:12) Driving in the city doesn't, I don't think, (12:15) because you're just trying not to get hit.

(12:18) Try to make that left turn. (12:20) Turn and stay alive. (12:21) Turn and stay alive and on time.

(12:25) Yeah, Toronto has such a history to everything about it. (12:32) That's just so much vibrancy of just, like you said, (12:37) the grids, but on top of that, there's so much more (12:41) that people themselves have brought here. (12:44) Yeah, you're right.

(12:45) Like the grid is only part of it. (12:48) And there's all the other, the cultural layers (12:53) and the natural parts. (12:56) I mean, the trees and plantings of various kinds.

(13:00) And then I could get off on a tangent (13:01) thinking about how grids might be part of nature (13:04) because they're made by people (13:05) and people are part of nature. (13:07) So maybe grids are naturally occurring. (13:10) Okay, maybe not.

(13:14) Yeah, that's a long discussion. (13:15) Yeah. (13:17) You're inspired by how light affects your subjects, (13:22) whether that be landscapes, grids, or coastlines.

(13:26) Can you describe for our audience how you folded this idea (13:30) into your multimedia grids show and why it fascinates you? (13:34) Okay. (13:35) And color. (13:36) It's, well, because color is so much affected by light.

(13:40) You buy a can of off-white paint (13:44) and at four in the morning under the artificial light, (13:49) it's one color. (13:50) And then at four o'clock in the afternoon, (13:51) it's a different color. (13:53) So color responds to light.

(13:57) And I have to be careful sometimes when I'm in the studio (14:02) that I look at what I'm doing in a variety of lights (14:07) because I don't know where it's going to be displayed (14:10) and where it's going to be looked at. (14:12) I think an idea of that. (14:14) So the way light, you know what I would say, (14:18) the way that light and dark interact in a composition (14:24) is at the base of what I'm trying to do.

(14:28) And probably a lot of artists have to do, (14:30) even though they might be trying to paint. (14:33) Oh, there's a lovely painter, Alison Galley, (14:37) who does beautiful paintings of simple domestic things (14:41) like pears in a bowl. (14:43) And the way she handles light is amazing.

(14:47) But even she, even though she knows (14:50) that she's doing these pears, (14:52) she also has to be aware of how the light and shadow work (14:57) just as an abstract composition. (15:00) You know, like all compositions are abstract (15:02) as well as being, if they're representational, (15:06) they're also abstract. (15:07) They have to follow some kind of inner compositional logic, (15:15) not rules, but logic.

(15:18) Yeah. (15:18) I don't know if I'm making, (15:19) it's very hard to talk about art. (15:21) It sometimes sounds like gobbledygook.

(15:24) No, but I understand what you mean, (15:26) that even if it's abstract, (15:29) it still has not rules, (15:33) but guidelines of how the composition (15:36) is supposed to make sense to the viewer. (15:39) It doesn't matter if it's real or representational. (15:42) No, it just, it has to coalesce somehow.

(15:46) And there might be broad lessons (15:50) about how that should work generally. (15:54) But I think also each piece has its own logic (15:59) that has to be followed. (16:00) If you have a blank surface of any kind, it has no rules.

(16:05) You put something down, you're starting a rule. (16:07) You put something else down, it's a tighter rule (16:10) and it gets tighter and tighter and tighter (16:12) as you add things. (16:15) So I don't know how we got there from light, (16:17) but light has to do with that, (16:18) with light and dark, you know? (16:20) Yeah, light and dark and line and form.

(16:22) Yeah. (16:23) It all, there's just so many pieces (16:27) to make a picture or an image make sense. (16:34) Yes, yes.

(16:36) And you don't always know where you're going with it, (16:39) at least I don't. (16:40) And it's the process like you have shown with this show (16:44) that as you're working with these mediums, (16:50) you're figuring out what these sort of found objects (16:58) you're finding are trying to say to you (17:00) with that specific piece, (17:02) how you're incorporating all of them together (17:05) to speak to you, to say what they're going to say. (17:08) Yeah, yeah.

(17:09) And they actually- (17:11) How do you know when you get to the point where it's- (17:15) It's finished? (17:16) Yeah, I don't know. (17:17) Sometimes the question of abandoning it (17:19) and then going back to it (17:21) and sometimes abandoning it again, (17:25) but sometimes bringing it to some kind of point. (17:28) I think it's flexible.

(17:30) I think you can bring it to a point (17:33) and you'll say, yeah, it's done. (17:35) But what if I just do this and then you do this (17:38) and then it's not done anymore (17:39) and you have to take it to another kind of completion (17:41) and it goes on like that. (17:44) Yeah, that's my figure.

(17:46) Yeah, I'm looking at some of these and I'm like, (17:48) well, how did you know they were done? (17:50) But I'm guessing all of them have sort of a finish over them, (17:55) like a- (17:55) Varnish. (17:56) Varnish, yeah. (17:57) Varnish, yeah.

(17:57) So, I mean, just before that point, (18:00) I mean, like what made you decide that they were complete? (18:04) I mean, I guess you just said though. (18:06) Yeah. (18:07) You just, you know, I guess, I don't know.

(18:10) Well, I know that it's at a point where- (18:14) You get to a bit further, yeah. (18:15) Yeah, the elements are speaking nicely to each other, (18:18) but not too nicely. (18:20) They're at that conflicting moment, but- (18:24) But having an interesting discussion.

(18:26) Yes. (18:27) Yeah, like the kind of dinner party (18:30) you really wanna be at. (18:31) It's like that.

(18:32) Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. (18:34) Yeah. (18:34) Yeah.

(18:41) How have you seen reading (18:44) has impacted your creative practice? (18:47) Has it given you new content (18:49) or has it transformed in context (18:51) by incorporating text into your paintings? (18:54) Is there a deeper meaning in what words you choose to use? (18:59) Oh, okay. (19:00) I'm glad you asked that (19:01) because actually I try to obstruct the meaning (19:05) of the print that I use. (19:07) I try to turn it upside down or cut through it (19:11) or something just so it will say text (19:15) and suggest content, but not be explicit.

(19:20) Okay. (19:21) Because that's so much part of walking down the street (19:25) and we don't stop and read everything. (19:28) In fact, we probably don't read much of it at all.

(19:30) It just kind of gets in our head. (19:32) So that's one of the things (19:34) because text is so potent, right? (19:37) It would take away from the art in the piece (19:42) if there's a lot of readability. (19:45) Like somewhere I heard that literacy (19:48) and art ability are not at war (19:52) but can be in conflict in your brain.

(19:55) And that literacy, because we in the school system (20:00) and in our culture generally, we prioritize it. (20:05) It squishes art over to the side. (20:08) And that's why you hear so many people say, (20:10) oh, I love art and I don't do it.

(20:11) No, I can't do it. (20:13) I'll bet you they can, you know. (20:15) Anyway, yeah, I don't know if I answered.

(20:17) Oh yeah, yeah. (20:18) Yeah. (20:19) Also about reading.

(20:21) Also about reading. (20:23) I think I try, (20:24) when I try to make completely non-representational pieces (20:30) I always want to put a little something in there (20:33) that represents something, (20:34) because that's like reading, that's the story. (20:37) Whereas the other is more like music.

(20:40) And then you put a little bit of story in there. (20:42) You put a person with a shopping bag (20:45) and then, you know, they're in there on the way home (20:49) and they change the piece because of that. (20:52) Okay, so you put that little person in there (20:56) as a symbol for you (20:57) or as a symbol for the audience or the observer? (21:00) Maybe both.

(21:01) I just want it to be there sometimes. (21:03) Sometimes I want a person. (21:05) Like that big piece has a person in it, (21:07) but it's not prominent.

(21:09) But there's a guy in there. (21:12) A lot of them have little people in them. (21:15) That's from reading stories, you know.

(21:18) So it's like you're giving another deeper meaning (21:22) to each piece about something else that you're trying to- (21:25) Yeah. (21:26) But I don't even think in those terms. (21:28) I'm just kind of, maybe it's kind of playful.

(21:31) It's intuitive, right? (21:32) Yeah, it's just you want to put that little person in there. (21:36) Why not? (21:37) It's putting the human element. (21:39) Yeah, yeah.

(21:40) We're human after all. (21:42) Yes. (21:42) And so what were you meaning by one is card (21:47) and one is music? (21:48) Like I heard you say- (21:49) Oh yeah, yeah.

(21:50) Well, when you have something, (21:51) say you did a grid totally non-representationally. (21:56) And that's like music without lyrics, right? (22:00) Lyrics make it into bringing up (22:03) possible vestiges of stories. (22:07) And it's the same thing in visual art.

(22:10) If it's just non-representational, that's one kind of art. (22:16) But if you bring in representational elements, (22:20) it brings in a kind of, (22:23) because it's anchored in our experience, (22:25) even if it's just flowers, (22:28) you start, your brain starts to make up a story (22:31) about what those are doing in there. (22:33) I don't know.

(22:34) It makes sense. (22:35) It brings in language. (22:36) Language, yeah, yeah.

(22:38) Images, language, you know, recognizable images (22:42) make you think language (22:43) and language is about relating things to each other. (22:47) Mm-hmm. (22:48) Yeah.

(22:53) Your love of garbage. (22:54) Yeah. (22:54) Yeah, sorry, I discovered this on you online.

(22:57) I just kind of jumped in there, but yeah. (23:00) Your love of garbage and seeing the beauty in random stuff (23:03) goes back to originally being connected (23:06) to preventing things from going to landfills. (23:09) Have you been able to transfer this technique (23:12) to other aspects of your life? (23:14) Say repurposing a room in your home (23:16) or reappropriating traits of your personality, for example? (23:20) Oh, oh, like if self-improvement is upcycling.

(23:28) I hadn't thought of it that way. (23:31) I think of it, my approach to using a kitchen (23:37) has a lot of the same procedures (23:39) where I'm trying to reuse things. (23:43) But I think, yeah, maybe thinking is a way (23:50) of reusing, reusing and upcycling (23:57) and being able to know what ideas to get rid of (24:03) because they're not useful to you anymore (24:05) and which ones to hold onto, which ones to adopt.

(24:11) I tend to hold onto things (24:16) longer than they need to be held onto, (24:18) but I do like novelty, so I also acquire new ideas. (24:24) Yeah, I don't know if I've answered your question properly. (24:28) Yeah, no, it sounds like you're recycling (24:31) from just your thought processes in a way.

(24:34) Yeah, yeah, reusing. (24:36) Reusing and just upcycling. (24:39) Like you said, just in the way you're thinking too is just.

(24:44) Yeah, it's probably, it carries over. (24:48) Yeah. (24:52) In your earlier work, (24:54) I could sense you were searching for your style.

(24:57) Where do you see your style today? (24:59) Do you see it as continuing to evolve in multimedia (25:03) or does the fluidity of the mixed media (25:06) prevent it from having a distinct style? (25:09) Is your fascination with color (25:11) and the light your central focus beyond collage? (25:18) Okay, there's a bunch of questions in there. (25:20) Yeah, I like to jam pack it. (25:23) Give you lots to think about.

(25:24) Yeah, yeah, yeah. (25:28) I don't, I think, I mean, I'm inside the work (25:33) and I'm inside the process of doing it, (25:35) so I don't see it objectively, (25:39) but I think I have a kind of color tendency (25:44) that continues through, has continued through years. (25:49) I think all the drawing I did back in the day (25:53) is a pretty good underpinning for what I'm doing now.

(26:01) So maybe there's a style there that I don't see, (26:07) but I think there's probably, (26:10) you can probably see commonalities. (26:13) If you did, if you put all my work on a timeline, (26:16) you'd see commonalities. (26:20) See, these are all really recent, (26:22) so if you see something similar in all of them, (26:25) that's not surprising, but the older stuff, (26:29) that you could probably still see the same choice of color, (26:33) maybe more color now, maybe lots of curves (26:37) and diagonals against uprights and horizontals.

(26:43) Always, maybe that would be a commonality. (26:46) Would you think that, or do you think that, (26:51) see with these works, their grids, (26:54) or that's what the exhibition is called, (26:57) but would you say that with these pieces, (26:59) you're kind of like creating your own maps (27:01) with these sort of recycled materials? (27:06) Like a mental map? (27:09) Yeah, it could be a mental map of that moment, (27:12) they found the pieces, (27:15) or what you were thinking that day, (27:18) where you were going, I mean, it's... (27:20) Probably all of that, and it may not be evident, (27:25) but I think we really bring everything that's in our head (27:30) to everything we do, really. (27:33) There's no getting around it.

(27:37) Maybe that's part of the risk of art, I don't know. (27:41) You may not want to bring certain things up, (27:45) and they come up anyway, (27:46) because they're stirred up by what you're doing. (27:54) Yeah, like you've got, with these pieces, (27:57) there is a definite consistency with your palette choices, (28:01) which is good, right, for just sort of being able (28:08) to have the show just work all together, right? (28:13) Yeah, they kind of go together.

(28:17) Yeah. (28:18) Yeah, it's true. (28:23) While your style was developing, (28:25) you wanted to capture the seeding moments (28:27) when nature is at its most awe-inspired, (28:33) also part of the garbage fascination as well.

(28:37) I'm with you, I'm with you, you know, (28:39) because I think, and it's regrettable, (28:43) the garbage is absolutely lamentable, (28:46) but somehow I wonder if humans (28:50) weren't supposed to happen at all. (28:52) When you think of walking as one long, controlled fall, (28:57) right, and that's essentially human, (29:01) to be able to walk upright, (29:03) and we're just falling until we fall down. (29:08) So that has to do with the way we think, (29:11) and the way we think brought us to a lot of good things, (29:15) but also this kind of ecological mess (29:18) we've gotten ourselves into.

(29:19) So it's almost as if there's a kind of natural (29:23) inevitability to it. (29:25) That's pretty dark, isn't it? (29:29) We had to mess up like this. (29:31) Yeah.

(29:33) So it almost is a natural, maybe it's also natural (29:39) for human beings to make things. (29:41) It is. (29:41) Yes.

(29:42) Out of whatever's around. (29:44) And so that's what we're doing. (29:46) That's what I'm doing here.

(29:49) It's a tangled mess, I know. (29:51) My answer is kind of a tangled mess. (29:53) Well, because I wasn't even finished the question, (29:55) but that's all right.

(29:56) I'm glad you, no, if you want, (29:59) if what I'm saying inspires you to just- (30:01) Jump in. (30:02) Jump in, then. (30:02) I'll jump in.

(30:03) That's good, yes. (30:05) Because I mean, what was I going to be saying anyway? (30:09) Talking about you and the moment (30:11) in your process of mixing the woven plastics (30:14) and the brightly colored papers. (30:17) And is this where you're able to capture (30:19) that breathing sort of moment that fuses line and color? (30:27) I love what you just said.

(30:30) You know what? (30:31) Maybe that's true. (30:33) I mean, maybe it can't not be true. (30:39) Yeah.

(30:40) Just the color, the richness of it. (30:43) Yes, true. (30:46) Can be, you're putting it in, you're weaving it in.

(30:50) It's looking great, (30:51) but it's like too much cream in your coffee or something. (30:55) It's too rich and you need to tone it down (30:58) so you bring something else in, something quieter. (31:02) And it's just that process of going back and forth, (31:07) and try like that piece over there, this big weave.

(31:12) With one other. (31:12) Yeah, it was so difficult. (31:16) Okay, so what is this piece called? (31:17) Just so our listeners- (31:18) It's called Big Weave Two.

(31:19) Big Weave Two? (31:20) Yeah, there's Big Weave One is at home. (31:22) Okay. (31:23) But they're both, they're two ends of a banner (31:25) that I found, somebody put to the curb.

(31:29) And I loved the color in the banner. (31:32) So I kept it and I started weaving through it, (31:36) but it was not, it's complex. (31:41) And so it's going to be difficult, but I wrangled it.

(31:46) I wrangled it and I think I'm okay with it now. (31:52) So what were you, it was, so you started with the banner (31:58) and then it was other sort of found elements that you- (32:02) Yeah, I mean, I have quite a collection at the studio. (32:05) It's not chaos.

(32:06) I have them in box schools, (32:08) but I found the banner and it had some silly big slogan (32:14) about teamwork on it. (32:15) It was some corporate thing, right? (32:18) And, but the color was great. (32:19) So I sliced it vertically, kept it together (32:26) at both the top and the bottom.

(32:28) And then that allows you to weave other things through it. (32:32) So I had a lot of like old paintings that I cut up (32:36) and plastic strips and zip ties and all kinds of things. (32:42) And I just kept adding to it.

(32:46) And it gets heavier and heavier and heavier (32:48) as you add to it. (32:51) Then I put in wire and oh, sometimes I drew on it, I think. (33:00) Have a look.

(33:01) Let's go over and look. (33:02) Yeah, yeah. (33:05) So we started out with that.

(33:07) And then I had a collection of this bright pink (33:10) and I put that in. (33:11) But first I did the vertical cuts (33:14) and then I did the horizontal additions, (33:16) but then that allows you to add other things (33:19) vertically on top. (33:20) And so I had, a friend gave me a bunch of clippings (33:24) from work that she'd been doing.

(33:26) She didn't want anymore. (33:28) Oh, there's embroidery floss in there (33:31) and fishing line and wire. (33:33) And oh, this is from a Christmas tree.

(33:38) That's my old chair. (33:41) It had vinyl upholstery and I kept it and it reupholstered. (33:45) So there's some more of their care instructions.

(33:47) See that, that's a little, isn't that too much? (33:50) Did you not, I thought you said you didn't want (33:52) too much. (33:54) I was like, well, that's so quiet. (33:56) You don't even notice it.

(33:58) Well, maybe you do. (33:59) Well, now that we're looking closely at it, (34:01) I mean, these smaller ones, you can't really see. (34:03) No, cause they go that way.

(34:05) And that one, you're not going to get (34:06) like all the care instructions. (34:08) So you're not going to read it for very long. (34:10) No, just care instructions.

(34:11) Yeah. (34:15) But yeah, like you said, you're weaving this piece (34:18) with all these other elements. (34:20) It's basically becoming like fabric.

(34:23) Yeah, that's right. (34:24) It's like fabric. (34:27) Yeah.

(34:28) I haven't looked at it for a while. (34:33) Yeah. (34:35) Yeah.

(34:35) And so there's this, that was, where were we? (34:39) And your questions, there's one more question (34:42) in which I wasn't sure if I was going to ask you. (34:47) I'm not sure. (34:49) Yeah, that doesn't really apply to me.

(34:54) I mean, of course I've had losses, everybody does. (34:59) You know what? (35:00) If I didn't do this, speaking of loss, (35:03) if I didn't do this kind of work, (35:05) I would be in despair of the loss of what we've done (35:10) to this gorgeous planet. (35:14) And when I stay away from doing art, (35:18) I get really bummed out about it.

(35:21) Not that this fixes anything, it doesn't, (35:23) but somehow it counterbalances it. (35:27) Yeah, so that's a kind of grief, you know? (35:31) Okay, so just for, yeah, the last question (35:36) was while you were developing your style (35:39) in the early 2000s, did modern art or realism (35:44) help your creativity to continue to explore? (35:47) Or was, like, where were you when you got to the point (35:51) where you said, no, I gotta just take this trash in (35:56) and then make it into something more beautiful? (35:59) I never even thought it. (36:01) I just saw this stuff and thought, (36:03) okay, well, this is so beautiful.

(36:04) Like, I can do something with this. (36:07) I had been using paper and acrylic paint and canvases. (36:16) Pardon me? (36:16) Which are expensive, after all.

(36:17) Expensive, and you know, when you paint with acrylic paint (36:23) and you clean your brush, (36:24) you're putting plastic into the water supply, (36:26) which didn't hit me until one day. (36:30) I thought, wait a second, this is not good. (36:33) We think of these things as benign (36:34) because they're on the market, they must be okay.

(36:37) Yeah. (36:37) They're not okay. (36:38) No, they're not.

(36:39) They're not okay. (36:39) Not that I'm, you know, judging anybody (36:42) for using acrylic medium and, you know, (36:44) using acrylic paint. (36:47) It's plastic put to good use, (36:50) but still I wanted to do something different.

(36:52) I don't think I'm answering your question, (36:53) but that's kind of how I got from drawing (36:57) and painting to this. (37:00) And I just kind of just... (37:02) Yeah, I mean, I was doing a lot of collage before that, (37:04) using paper and using color that already exists (37:08) instead of buying it because there's a lot of color around. (37:13) There is, yeah.

(37:14) Yeah. (37:16) Well, this is a great show, it really is. (37:19) Oh, thanks, thank you.

(37:20) Well, thank you so much for having this interview with me (37:23) and it was a pleasure. (37:25) Yeah, I will get this to you as soon as I can (37:27) and enjoy your exhibit. (37:31) Thank you.

(37:31) Thank you. (37:32) It's a very good one, yes. (37:33) Oh, thanks.

(37:33) I really enjoyed myself talking to you. (37:36) Yeah, it's been fun. (37:39) Okay.

(37:39) It's always fun talking about art. (37:40) Yeah, it always is. (37:41) It always is.

(37:42) And I will, if I can think of people who would like, (37:46) if you want subjects for your podcast. (37:50) All right. (37:50) Like, I'll ask.

(37:52) She's my one, yeah. (37:54) Well, yeah, I've been looking at Propeller (37:56) because there's a lot of artists (37:58) that are involved with the gallery. (38:00) Yeah, I think there are about 40 of us.

(38:03) Nice. (38:03) Yeah, so there's good stuff there. (38:06) And there's also the Artist Network.

(38:09) Do you know it? (38:10) It's in the East End, it's in Leslieville. (38:12) Oh, yeah. (38:13) Leslie Grove Gallery.

(38:15) And, oh, there's lots of stuff. (38:17) There are a lot of people making art. (38:18) Yeah.

(38:19) All right. (38:19) Awesome. (38:20) Okay.

(38:20) All right. (38:21) Thanks for coming down. (38:23) Yes.

(38:32) And I'll talk to you again soon. (38:34) Yeah. (38:36) Yeah.

(38:43) Yeah. (38:44) Yeah.